Could a TTer change the past?

[Gardez]

Could a time traveler change the past?

The biggest objection to a time traveler changing the past takes the form of the GFP or 'GrandFather Paradox'.

In one interview Physicist Michio Kaku went into great detail about the GFP.
And it appears to be a favorite topic of his, but is it really a paradox?

In the GFP:
1) A man is born.
A man creates a time machine.
A man goes back in time.
A man kills his own grandfather while there. And, then the GFP adds:

2) This very same man was never born.
This very same man mentioned above never created a working time machine.
This very same man never went back in time. And this very same man never killed his own grandfather!

Do you see the REAL paradox?

Its Schrodinger's Cat, with no box!

Science says that TT may be possible.
A man may be able to create a TM.
A man may be able to travel backwards in time. And he may be able kill his own grandfather.

Gedanken (thought experiment):

Imagine this evil TTer following his unknowing grandfather around for weeks, just waiting for the right moment to strike. At that very fateful moment in time he makes his move, sneaks up on him, and shoots his Grandfather - dead!

The Evil TTer stands over the lifeless body...looking down at it...watching the blood flow outwards from it...he still stares at it...just standing there......

It has been proposed that Stephen Hawking's (Cambridge) 'Chronology Projection Conjecture', or CPC, will exact vengeance on this murderer.
But S.H.'s himself, has since conceded that time travel to the past may indeed BE possible.

Even ignoring this fact, the CPC only applies to nature preventing anyone FROM actually time traveling and it says nothing at all about what he or she can or can not do once they have actually do time traveled.

Which is what the GFP is all about.

Science has no explanation for anything that will now exact revenge for this evil deed- there is nothing in nature to kill this murderer.
There is no 'VFTTLB' or 'vengeance filled time traveling lightning bolt' in science, that will instantly travel into the past and destroy this evil-doer.

....the evil TTer just stands there....he's getting bored,..just watching the lifeless corpse,...and he walks away,...to go get some ice cream.

And theres nothing to stop him, that is, unless the local authorities catch up with him......or if they exist,
'the Time Cops'.

Since theres nothing in science to prevent a TTer from doing anything that they wish to do in the past,if TT ever does become reality, lets just hope that they are 'good guys'.

[Jeebuz]

Hey T,

U never actually said what u think would happen if the GFP was to occur.....

r you one of these people that think time would unravel and destroy the universe or what?

i personally dont beleve this would be the case... perhaps it would be a case of the TT'er just disapering oneday (the day that he travels back) and never comes back. because it could be argued that he only ceases to exist (ie was never born) AFTER he goes back.

So basically he lives his life as normal untill the day he goes back. he travels back kills his GF and then ceases to exist..... it would be like a cross over of time, like a mixture of the time that the GF lived in, that is then 'contaminated' just by the tt'er having been there (even if he did then cease to exist) and then 'recasts' time with this new taint/event...... or if u beleve in the infinte reality theory then a new reality is then formed upon this event.

hmmm i doubt thats very coherent(sp?) but nevermind i hope u get me point

cyas m8
-J-

[Gardez]

Hey J,

Theres nothing in science to stop the TTer from doing whatever he or she wants to do. In my example he does go back, kills his own grandfather, and then goes to get ice cream, he may then go see a movie.

The only changes are to the future from that point. Obviously his grandfather will never have children, so the TTer's father will never be born, or if the TTer had any brothers or sisters, then also will never be born.

But the TTer exists, he can do what he wants, including going back to his former time, where NO ONE will know him.As far as they are concerned he was never born.
Its like the LAW, anything not illegal, is considered to be legal.

Theres no 'law' to stop him.

WE can guess all we like, but the first step is asking 'what' would kill him?

And theres no answer to that question.

Theres nothing to kill him.

So once you do time travel its a free game, you can mess with anything that you wish to mess with.

But the TTer is still human, he can be run over by a car in 1948 just as easily as he could be in 2003.

Not only would he die in the past, but no one would know who the heck he is or 'where' he came from.

Or should that be 'when'?

[Jeebuz]

Hey T,

yer i see what u mean....in order for him to actually cease to exist completly something would have to kill him.....
so yes i guess he would remain the same while time reshaped its self/played out with the new events..... and to everyone else he would never have been born

good thinkin

cyas
-J-

_{Give a man a fire and he'll be warm for a day,
Set a man on fire and he'll be warm for the rest of his life. - Terry Pratchett - Discworld}

[Gardez]

LOL!

It took me a 'second'..

Give a man a fire and he'll be warm for a day,
Set a man on fire and he'll be warm for the rest of his life.
- Terry Pratchett - Discworld

I never heard that one b4.

[Jeebuz]

Hey T,

tis an excellent quote but its even funnier if uve read the book and know the context its used in

Its taken from the book Jingo from the series of books Discword by terry pratchett V.V.Funny books id recommend them to anyone

cyas -J-

[Goddess]

i wonder if it really is true that if you went back in time any little thing you did like step on a plant or kill an animal could change the future.because ive seen in some shows where the people did that and it it changed the future.do you think that could be true

[Gardez]

Quote:
i wonder if it really is true that if you went back in time any little thing you did like step on a plant or kill an animal could change the future.because ive seen in some shows where the people did that and it it changed the future.do you think that could be true
--------------------------

I think it depends on 'which plant' you step on...everything happens in 'steps' like going to 1st grade, then 2nd grade, then 3rd grade etc, or going to work or school, for most people the alarm clock goes off, they get up, shower, eat, etc..but what if the alarm didnt go off?
Then they might keep sleeping and not do all those other things.
Then all of the people that they would have interacted with during that day will have different events in their life.
Affecting all of the people that THEY in turn interact with.
Its a long chain of events.

So stepping on one plant, if its an important plant in history could in theory change our entire world.

I read an old story about hunters that go back in time to hunt dinosaurs.
But they had to stay on a levitating path and never go off it.

They were only allowed to hunt certain dinosaurs that their guides knew would have soon died anyway.

One hunter stepped off the path and the guides cancelled their trip immediately and brought everyone back home, 'to the future'. When they returned home everything was different, even the language.

They looked at the hunter who had stepped off the path and there was a single dead butterfly stuck to his boot.

One butterfly, that was never chased by other animals or man and a whole series of events that had happened before, that were stopped from happening 'again', now changed everything.

Think of ancestors, where hundreds of people can trace their line back to one person...what if a time traveler went back in time and accidentially killed this person? Or caused him never to meet 'his wife'?
None of those people would exist. Neither would their children, or their childrens children, etc....

'Everything is connected and a single butterfly can change the world'.

...be careful where you step.

:-)

[Goddess]

yeah thats kinda scary. well im glad the chain of events in which my mom and dad met didnt get altered in some way. i wouldnt be here and that would suck.were all really lucky.

[Maddie]

Whoa, you guys lost me a while back.

[PointOfFact]

Heh, they lost me in the beginning... going back to read it all... I'm not good in this subject, I'd rather stick to authoring.

[Maddie]

i'm not very good on this subject either

[Somebody Help Me]

There was a show on a while back called '7 Days' where something big like an explosion, or a m@ss murder, or something along the lines would occur, and a man was sent back 7 days and he would fix it. They canceled it though, to bad, it was a good show.

Well, my feelings ont he argument. If the man (or Tru ) in question were to travel back and kill their grandfather, their father would never have been born, so neither would they. But the man still exists. He just would have no family, he would be... different. But if he were to go back and say kidd the monkey that carried AIDS, we wouldn't have it to this day. But in doing that he would alter life as we know it and possible a worse more rabid disese could get out that would destroy the human race. For these reasons and more, TT is really hard to imagine and very risky, but if you could go back and save peoples lives likt Tru, that would be so cool! FMI, do you guys see it as a gift or a burden?

[Gardez]

Hiya Sk8er,

Its a gift and a burden.

Like everything else, there are two sides to it. It might seem like a great life to grow up as a Prince or a Princess, but they never get to have a nornal life, and everything they do and say is always being watched and debated.

Or being a movie star, fame and fortune, but you cant just go anywhere.

[Somebody Help Me]

Tru... But what happens when she has to leave? (No doubt they will keep her in the mourge (did I spell that right?) for awhile but still...

[Maddie]

What do you mean "what happens when she leaves"??

[.::Romance_Kills::.]

What if u did go back in time and like save someone i wonder how it would change the future.

[btvstca]

there could also be alternate realities-one in which the grandfather dies and one in which he lives.

[Gardez]

I can't believe in 'MWI' time travel.

That would mean that nothing matters.

No criminal is ever caught, no one is ever saved, no Dictator is ever over thrown. They 'always' succeed, some where.

Also, there would be countless entire universes. So I died from a 106 degrees fever, was run over by a car, drowned, drove off a cliff, drove into a lake and drowned, and have already died many other times, in another reality, because everything happens.

Kindof makes it all senseless.

[Gardez]

Maybe Time Travelers have a sense of humor?

cnews.canoe.ca/CNEWS/WeirdNews/2004/03/09/376073-ap.html

Girl named Diot Coke

LONDON (AP) - Naming your child after a popular soft drink could be seen as a little bit faddish, but the parents of young Diot Coke might be forgiven -
they gave their baby daughter the name
in 1379.
Researchers at Britain's National Archives believe that the girl, born in West Riding in Yorkshire, was the unfortunate victim of the corruption of the name Dionisia. One of the diminutives derived from that name on its path to the modern-day Denise was Diot. The girl's surname is believed to be a variation on the name Cook.
George Redmonds, the author of the organization's Ancestors magazine, discovered in his scrutiny of the birth archives that names now considered to be masculine, such as Philip and Thomas, were once used for girls in the 14th century.
Redmonds also found that names such as Godelena, Helwise, Idony, Avice and Dionisia were more popular than some of the names now considered traditional, such as Mary.